Wikipédia:Bistro des non-francophones/Archives/2016
Dernier commentaire : il y a 8 ans par Ziko dans le sujet Wikimedia Conferentie Nederland
Edit request: exchange Tibetan flag for Tibetan landscape to remove political undertones in "Tibet portals"
modifier
At Catégorie:Wikipédia:ébauche Tibet the Tibetan separatist/independence flag, which is banned in Mainland China, is being used here. Wikipedia is supposed to be politically neutral and using the flag could be seen as taking a political stance (much like the use of the Vietnamese flag in relation to overseas Vietnamese). I think the File:Potala palace24.jpg (which is used in en:Template:WikiProject Tibet) is far more suitable as there are no political undertones here.
I opened a meta discussion about the issue at meta:Wikimedia_Forum#Unnecessary_uses_of_separatist_flags
The Tibetan flag should be mentioned in articles about separatism and sections about separatism, but it should not be used unnecessarily. In other words Wikipedia shouldn't be seen as endorsing the political movement. WhisperToMe (discuter) 13 avril 2016 à 01:16 (CEST)
Elnon et Rédacteur Tibet : 
Cordialement, — Racconish ☎ 13 avril 2016 à 08:27 (CEST)
- Le débat a déjà été ouvert [1]. Conclu par consensus, je ne vois pas de motif de le ré-ouvrir.--Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 13 avril 2016 à 13:06 (CEST)
- La proposition de restreindre l'apparition de l'ancien drapeau du Tibet aux pages concernant d'une part le Tibet politique (1913-1959), d'autre part le gouvernement tibétain en exil (1959-2016) et la mouvance indépendantiste, me paraît de bon sens : il faut s'abstenir de favoriser la promotion des séparatismes. --Elnon (discuter) 13 avril 2016 à 16:39 (CEST)
- La restriction n'est pas logique. Le drapeau du Tibet est le symbole du Tibet. L'associer à un mouvement séparatiste est une accusation du gouvernement chinois. Accepter cela, c'est faire le jeu de cette accusation. Si le drapeau est interdit en Chine, il ne l'est pas en France, et ce projet est sur fr.WP, et non zh.WP. L'usage du drapeau du Tibet par les associations liées au Tibet, n'est pas l'apanage des seules associations prônant l'indépendance. En suivant votre logique, il faudrait aussi séparer celles comme Students for a Free Tibet qui prônent l'indépendance de celles comme Campagne internationale pour le Tibet qui prônent l’autodétermination, ou encore Aide à l'enfance tibétaine, uniquement humanitaire. Pour ma part je ne considère pas que l'usage du drapeau sur le projet implique que "Wikipedia [is] endorsing the political movement". Venir l'affirmer ici me semble être un point de vue, introduit par un contributeur qui ne maîtrise pas le français et ignore donc tout du projet Tibet, où il n'est à ma connaissance jamais intervenu. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 13 avril 2016 à 18:06 (CEST)
- Actually, only the symbol of Tibet is a separated symbol, we'd better not use it. But the flag? it's just a history flag of Tibet used from 1912 to 1951, the photo can prove it. Seperate flag? The Chinese Wikipedia says that only Chinese government think it's a separate flag; 14th Dalai Lama says it's a only autonomous flag. ([2][3][4]).
Wikipedia is not censored. wikipedia is not a website in Red China, so it's no need to obey laws in China, just obey law in Florida is enough. — Le message qui précède, non signé, a été déposé par l'IP 122.90.81.113 (discuter)- In Meta:Requests for comment/Massive sysop abuse in Chechen Wikipedia a group of Russian editors did cite the fact that the Russian government had the possibility of blocking Wikipedia.org entirely as one reason why they had to take action against a group of rogue editors on the Chechen Wikipedia. It wasn't about censoring information unfavorable to the Russian government, but about a group of editors trying to remove information such as "Chechnya is a part of the Russian Federation" - There is a difference between posting information unfavorable to a government, and endorsing a point of view in a political dispute. Wikipedia should do the former, but not the latter. WhisperToMe (discuter) 14 avril 2016 à 21:32 (CEST)
- Wikipedia is not a source. Actually, the other symbol you propose, Potala, is linked to Tibet Governement, so, it may appears similar as the Tibet flag to many, and maybe worse for neutrality to others, as it is linked to religion. Beside the Potala, the Tibet flag is a perfect secular symbol. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 14 avril 2016 à 12:38 (CEST)
- I for one would not object to a view of the Potala palace being substituted for the exile Tibetan flag. The Potala is universally acknowledged as symbolizing Tibet (in the same way as the Versailles palace can be seen as a symbol of France). It stopped being the embodiment of the Tibetan theocracy in 1959 and is little more today than a museum (not forgetting the fact the Dalai Lama is in no hurry to return to live there...)
. --Elnon (discuter) 14 avril 2016 à 17:20 (CEST)
- I agree that the Elnon Palace would be a good idea. WhisperToMe (discuter) 14 avril 2016 à 21:37 (CEST)
- Selon l'UNESCO, le Potala "symbolise le bouddhisme tibétain et son rôle central dans l'administration traditionnelle au Tibet" [5], et non globalement le Tibet. Le drapeau du Tibet qui a une réalité historique est connu d'un grand nombre. Sa fonction première de "représentation" en fait une illustration de choix pour le portail Tibet, puisqu'aucune autre n'est aussi largement connue, universelle et laïque.
- According to UNESCO, Potala "symbolizes Tibetan Buddhism and its central role in the traditional administration of Tibet", and not globally Tibet. The flag of Tibet that has a historical reality is known to many. Its primary function of "representation" makes it a choice for illustration of Tibet portal, since no other is so widely known, universal and secular. (If you can read French, see Drapeau du Tibet#Symbole d'une revendication séparatiste ou d'une liberté d'expression ?, it is explained that Tibet flag is considered as pro-independence in China, where it is forbidden, whereas it is not the case in Taiwan or Hong Kong. As a matter of fact, Potala is also considered by some as a symbol of Tibet freedom, which illustrates that this issue is a point of view: if we use Potala for Tibet, some may see it more prominantly as a symbol of free Tibet, Tibet identity, Tibetan nationalism, etc. ). --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 14 avril 2016 à 18:13 (CEST)
- WhisperToMe :, 122.90.81.113 :, I think we can not take a decision based on this discussion, as it is going mostly in English, and not all users on French wikipedia understand English. I strongly diseagree with idea to replace Tibet flag by another symbol, because the other symbol, Potala or Snow-Lion, or Yak, can be identified as linked to Tibet independence movement. As a matter of fact, Tibet Flag is used by Administration centrale tibétaine (CTA), but CTA is not requesting Tibet independence. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 14 avril 2016 à 23:29 (CEST)
- The "national flag of Tibet" (its full name) is said to have been created by the 13th Dalai Lama at a time when the Tibetan polity – the territory over which he ruled – was de facto independent (to use Tibetologist Melvyn Goldstein's words). So I fail to see how the flag could not possibly be the symbol of an independent Tibet. The exiled Tibetan pontiff may say that he does not claim full independence and only wants some kind of autonomy, the fact is that he adamantly refuses to recognize China's sovereignty over Tibet. This can only be construed as claiming independence.
- The image of the towering and majestic Potala is already being universally used and understood as symbolizing Tibet (whatever historical geographical or cultural entity is meant by this name). It would be a shame not to use it. --Elnon (discuter) 15 avril 2016 à 02:07 (CEST)
- @Rédacteur Tibet Why not start a discussion at Wikipédia:Le Bistro? Or link to it from there? WhisperToMe (discuter) 15 avril 2016 à 06:32 (CEST)
- I do not think it is worse pursuing, Taiwan's flag is also banned in China [6], yet, it is used on fr.WP portal.--Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 15 avril 2016 à 16:08 (CEST)
- I for one would not object to a view of the Potala palace being substituted for the exile Tibetan flag. The Potala is universally acknowledged as symbolizing Tibet (in the same way as the Versailles palace can be seen as a symbol of France). It stopped being the embodiment of the Tibetan theocracy in 1959 and is little more today than a museum (not forgetting the fact the Dalai Lama is in no hurry to return to live there...)
- La proposition de restreindre l'apparition de l'ancien drapeau du Tibet aux pages concernant d'une part le Tibet politique (1913-1959), d'autre part le gouvernement tibétain en exil (1959-2016) et la mouvance indépendantiste, me paraît de bon sens : il faut s'abstenir de favoriser la promotion des séparatismes. --Elnon (discuter) 13 avril 2016 à 16:39 (CEST)
- Les faits sont têtus
-
Drapeau des fondateurs de la République de Chine à Wuhan, lieu du Soulèvement de Wuchang qui fit tomber le dernier Empereur de Chine derrière la « statue de Monsieur Sun Zhongshan/Yat-sen » (孙中山先生之像) -
Symbole de la République de Chine sur une Jeep fournie par les ÉUA dans un musée de Xining, (province du Qinghai) -
Drapeaux de la République de Chine à Guangzhou (Canton) -
Drapeau à cinq couleurs de la République de Chine à Guangzhou -
-
Statue de Sun Zhongshan, parc Sun Zhongshan, Pékin -
-
Statue de Sun Zhongshan, Shanghai -
Statue de Sun Zhongshan, memorial de Sun Zhongshan, Guangzhou (Guangdong) -
Statue de Sun Zhongshan, université Sun Zhongshan, Guangzhou -
-
-
Le lieu de naissance de Sun Zhongshan devient la municipalité de Zhongshan (Guangdong) sous la République populaire de Chine
- That case is not about the ROC (Taiwan) flag being "banned" by the Chinese government, but by a group of nationalist users bullying a pop star. During the time the Chinese Wikipedia was unblocked in Mainland China the PRC authorities never had a problem with the ROC flag being displayed on Wikipedia. If anything it's become less controversial than it used to be because the PRC has cozied up with the Kuomintang. What the PRC is afraid of is "Taiwan independence" meaning Taiwan saying "Taiwan is not a part of China". The current ROC flag does not make that "assertion".
- WhisperToMe (discuter) 15 avril 2016 à 22:47 (CEST)
- That's not a problem to see the Kuomintang flag in Mainland China, you can see it on lot of museums and websites. Most chinese cities have a public garden called Sun Zhongshan (Sun Yatsen in cantonese) with it scuplture and some of his words inside. Don't forget that RoC and PRoC make lot of agreements since the return of Kuomintang to political power, including trades exchanges, direct airlines from both part of detroit. Meeting of RoC president Ma Yingjiu and PRoC Xi Jingpingin Beijing, in november 2015 is another good step to friendship. Tibet flag was only used by theocraty during few years with help (pressure ?) from british empire (look at the british style tibetan troops under the flag on the historical picture), that's does not represent the flag of Tibet. About this, there is a problem with Empire du Tibet flag, where the only source is on a picture from unknown pro-indepeendent today sect callaed Phayul (CIA backed ?), not historical one at all. This article try to traceback flags changes depending on periods of Tibet history, including Empire of Tibet that is claimed by independantists. An himalayan mountain range and some tibetan yaks or houses could be used as a more neutral symbol. The so called tibetan snow lion, remember me everytime chinese lion, the shape is the same, only color change, as chinese lions are more generally made of stone without color, they both play with round stone too. You can see them in Mongolia too still with the ball, in front of doors. I never understood why tibetan independentist use one of the more important symbol of the whole country, that is really an unificator symbol of China, that you can see in front of so many doors.Popolon (discuter) 15 avril 2016 à 23:36 (CEST)
- Even Mao said Tibet could have its national flag : [7]. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 19 avril 2016 à 13:18 (CEST)
- Accoding to page 505 that meeting was held in 1955. Much of the political controversy (such as the development of the Tibetan flag into a Tibetan separatist symbol) happened after that time. WhisperToMe (discuter) 20 avril 2016 à 21:33 (CEST)
- Use of flags by nationalist or separatist movement occurs, but it does not mean that they only represent that. As already stated, Taiwan flag is strongly discouraged in China (see also Drapeau de Taïwan#Drapeaux similaires). Mao did not consider national flag of Tibet as a threat, unlike some of his colleagues at that time, this is clearly stated by him. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 21 avril 2016 à 15:03 (CEST)
- I do not agree for Republic of China (中華民國) flag (Taïwan is not the name of the country, that's the name of the Island, border of the country, are also in Republic of China Fujian province, inside the border of the mainland (like here, at Xiamen). There are strong exchange between the border of the straits, and you can see RoC flag in lot of places.Popolon (discuter) 21 avril 2016 à 16:56 (CEST)
- That is only your statement. As a matter of fact, Taiwan flag was even banned at Olympic Games, [8] (see also Comité olympique de Taipei chinois). --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 21 avril 2016 à 17:15 (CEST)
- I am aware of this. The committee was renamed "Chinese Taipei" in 1979 back when ties were more tense between the Mainland and Taiwan. WhisperToMe (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 09:28 (CEST)
- Instead, Rédacteur Tibet, that's your extrapolation, this is an international and political representation, outside of China, for olympic games. Republic of China, doesn't exist at UNO, that's a problem for taiwanese friend to travel on some countries with their passeports. This does not mean at all that the flag is forbidden in Mainland China. One more time, I seen it lot of times in Mainland. PRoC often honur RoC time and heroes. The split between both China, is mainly due to Tchang Kaï-chek/Jiǎng Jièshí, even Kuomintang banned it's representations from Republic of China, due to the terror it made on it's own country, both in mainland and Taïwan island. Anyway, this doesn't give legetimity to a few years flag for an about 1200 year old area of the world.Popolon (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 09:44 (CEST)
- The prohibition of displaying the flag of Taiwan goes beyond 1979 and IOC : [9]. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 12:18 (CEST)
- This speak about "taiwanese" (Republic of China) flag prohibition in South Korea, not in Mainland China (People Republic of China)...Popolon (discuter) 26 avril 2016 à 15:10 (CEST)
- Yes of course, but it is there stated that in August 1992 ... "while Seoul acknowledged Beijing as the sole legitimate government of China and accepted the position that there is only one China with Taiwan a part of China. Seoul has done its best to adhere to the "one China" principle ever since. Having discouraged Taipei from selling its embassy complex, Seoul then turned it over to Beijing. Additionally, it prohibited Taiwanese and Taiwanese Koreans from displaying their national flag in offices and schools in Korea. Since 1992, not too many Korean politicians have visited Taiwan, ..." Similarly the Dalai Lama is denied entry in South Korea... It is difficult not to see here the Beijing rule, as in IOC. As a matter of fact [10] ("Les faits sont têtus") --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 26 avril 2016 à 17:01 (CEST)
- This speak about "taiwanese" (Republic of China) flag prohibition in South Korea, not in Mainland China (People Republic of China)...Popolon (discuter) 26 avril 2016 à 15:10 (CEST)
- The prohibition of displaying the flag of Taiwan goes beyond 1979 and IOC : [9]. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 12:18 (CEST)
- Instead, Rédacteur Tibet, that's your extrapolation, this is an international and political representation, outside of China, for olympic games. Republic of China, doesn't exist at UNO, that's a problem for taiwanese friend to travel on some countries with their passeports. This does not mean at all that the flag is forbidden in Mainland China. One more time, I seen it lot of times in Mainland. PRoC often honur RoC time and heroes. The split between both China, is mainly due to Tchang Kaï-chek/Jiǎng Jièshí, even Kuomintang banned it's representations from Republic of China, due to the terror it made on it's own country, both in mainland and Taïwan island. Anyway, this doesn't give legetimity to a few years flag for an about 1200 year old area of the world.Popolon (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 09:44 (CEST)
- I am aware of this. The committee was renamed "Chinese Taipei" in 1979 back when ties were more tense between the Mainland and Taiwan. WhisperToMe (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 09:28 (CEST)
- That is only your statement. As a matter of fact, Taiwan flag was even banned at Olympic Games, [8] (see also Comité olympique de Taipei chinois). --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 21 avril 2016 à 17:15 (CEST)
- I do not agree for Republic of China (中華民國) flag (Taïwan is not the name of the country, that's the name of the Island, border of the country, are also in Republic of China Fujian province, inside the border of the mainland (like here, at Xiamen). There are strong exchange between the border of the straits, and you can see RoC flag in lot of places.Popolon (discuter) 21 avril 2016 à 16:56 (CEST)
- Use of flags by nationalist or separatist movement occurs, but it does not mean that they only represent that. As already stated, Taiwan flag is strongly discouraged in China (see also Drapeau de Taïwan#Drapeaux similaires). Mao did not consider national flag of Tibet as a threat, unlike some of his colleagues at that time, this is clearly stated by him. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 21 avril 2016 à 15:03 (CEST)
- Accoding to page 505 that meeting was held in 1955. Much of the political controversy (such as the development of the Tibetan flag into a Tibetan separatist symbol) happened after that time. WhisperToMe (discuter) 20 avril 2016 à 21:33 (CEST)
- Even Mao said Tibet could have its national flag : [7]. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 19 avril 2016 à 13:18 (CEST)
- That's not a problem to see the Kuomintang flag in Mainland China, you can see it on lot of museums and websites. Most chinese cities have a public garden called Sun Zhongshan (Sun Yatsen in cantonese) with it scuplture and some of his words inside. Don't forget that RoC and PRoC make lot of agreements since the return of Kuomintang to political power, including trades exchanges, direct airlines from both part of detroit. Meeting of RoC president Ma Yingjiu and PRoC Xi Jingpingin Beijing, in november 2015 is another good step to friendship. Tibet flag was only used by theocraty during few years with help (pressure ?) from british empire (look at the british style tibetan troops under the flag on the historical picture), that's does not represent the flag of Tibet. About this, there is a problem with Empire du Tibet flag, where the only source is on a picture from unknown pro-indepeendent today sect callaed Phayul (CIA backed ?), not historical one at all. This article try to traceback flags changes depending on periods of Tibet history, including Empire of Tibet that is claimed by independantists. An himalayan mountain range and some tibetan yaks or houses could be used as a more neutral symbol. The so called tibetan snow lion, remember me everytime chinese lion, the shape is the same, only color change, as chinese lions are more generally made of stone without color, they both play with round stone too. You can see them in Mongolia too still with the ball, in front of doors. I never understood why tibetan independentist use one of the more important symbol of the whole country, that is really an unificator symbol of China, that you can see in front of so many doors.Popolon (discuter) 15 avril 2016 à 23:36 (CEST)
- This never means that's forbidden in Mainland China... That's still your own extrapolation.Popolon (discuter) 29 avril 2016 à 08:49 (CEST)
Revenons à nos moutons. Voici un exemple tout à fait explicite du fait que le drapeau du Tibet est bien celui des indépendantistes tibétains : un photo, issue de la page du drapeau tibétain, montrant le militant indépendantiste tibétain Tenzin Tsundue en train de brandir ce dernier au-dessus d'une bannière Free Tibet en 2005. --Elnon (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 13:43 (CEST)
- J'ai expliqué ci-dessus en anglais que l'usage par des indépendantistes d'un drapeau ne peut occulter qu'il s'agit d'un symbole représentatif. Voir par exemple la photo d'un ministre tibétain reçu à Taïwan. On ne peut tout de même pas prétendre qu'il s'agit là d'une manifestation séparatiste
%E8%B2%A1%E6%94%BF%E9%83%A8%E9%95%B7%E6%8B%9C%E6%9C%83%E8%87%BA%E7%81%A3%E5%9C%8B%E6%9C%83(%E7%AB%8B%E6%B3%95%E9%99%A2)_TIBETAN_Minister_of_Finance_visited_TAIWANESE_Congress.jpg)
--Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 22 avril 2016 à 17:55 (CEST)
- Puisque vous parlez du symbolisme du drapeau tibétain, je me permets de vous rappeler ce que vous avez inséré dans la page du drapeau au sujet de ce symbolisme :
- « Les trois joyaux qu'ils maintiennent élevés devant eux sont le symbole de l'éternel respect et indestructible confiance que le peuple tibétain conserve à l'égard de ceux qui, dans le Bouddhisme, sont les Trois Refuges sublimes : le Bouddha, le Dharma et la Sangha »
- « Entre les deux lions, il y a un joyau coloré composé de deux parties inextricablement enchâssées l'une dans l'autre. C'est le symbole de l'attention que porte le peuple tibétain tant à l'éthique telle qu'elle est enseignée dans le bouddhisme par l'abandon des 10 actes non-vertueux, qu'à la morale sociale grâce au respect des 16 règles civiques édictées à l'époque de l'empereur Song Tsèn Gam Po »
- « Enfin, la bordure jaune au pourtour du drapeau symbolise la diffusion, en toutes directions et à toutes les époques, de la parole du Bouddha dont l'éclat est en tous points semblable à celui de l'or le plus pur ! »
- Autrement dit, ce drapeau est celui du bouddhisme tibétain. --Elnon (discuter) 29 avril 2016 à 09:17 (CEST)
- Ah bon ? Le drapeau du bouddhisme tibétain ? Vous avez une source sur ce point de vue ? --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 29 avril 2016 à 13:06 (CEST)
- Si je comprends bien, vous avez recopié les phrases ci-dessus dans la page du Drapeau du Tibet sans voir les trois joyaux, le joyau entre les deux lions, la bordure jaune et ce que ces symboles bouddhistes représentent. Ce ne sont tout de même pas des symboles chrétiens ! --Elnon (discuter) 29 avril 2016 à 14:13 (CEST)
- Vous ne répondez pas à ma demande de source. J'en déduis que vous n'en avez pas. --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 29 avril 2016 à 17:50 (CEST)
- Si je comprends bien, vous avez recopié les phrases ci-dessus dans la page du Drapeau du Tibet sans voir les trois joyaux, le joyau entre les deux lions, la bordure jaune et ce que ces symboles bouddhistes représentent. Ce ne sont tout de même pas des symboles chrétiens ! --Elnon (discuter) 29 avril 2016 à 14:13 (CEST)
- Ah bon ? Le drapeau du bouddhisme tibétain ? Vous avez une source sur ce point de vue ? --Rédacteur Tibet (discuter) 29 avril 2016 à 13:06 (CEST)
- Puisque vous parlez du symbolisme du drapeau tibétain, je me permets de vous rappeler ce que vous avez inséré dans la page du drapeau au sujet de ce symbolisme :
Wikimedia Conferentie Nederland
modifierDear friends, last weekend I enjoyed the WikiConvention in Paris. With some of you I talked about the Wikimedia Conferentie Nederland (WCN), it will take place on 19 November 2016 in Utrecht. We invite presentations in Dutch or English. If you read this and have something to tell about your work on Wikipedia, or aspects of the movement, or related topics such as free knowledge... the WCN might be the ideal place for you to meet Dutch and Belgian Wikipedians. See the link here. Kind regards Ziko (discuter) 24 août 2016 à 17:26 (CEST)